Curse

lg5000 · Jan 15, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

I dunno, the way the pve side of things stands atm, it makes for more unique builds.

Now that I finished the game, I can go back and pick missions I enjoyed and change my skill set to something completly insane, just to see if it'll work

Then again, maybe I'm just a slow learner, but its only now that I'm learning that certain skills exist and how nicely they fit into my skill bar.

And yes, the interupts in pve are annoying due to the fact that AI monsters can interupt a split second after you start casting, reminds me of the first aoe nerf and how monsters ran at the sight of you hitting an aoe skill, way before you finished casting it. Glad they updated that within half a day and made it more 'normal' now.

Mister Overhill · Jan 15, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Too many mobs = too unrealistic (Serious Sam, anyone?). Where would you expect to see a desert crawling with hydras? And always in the same place? What I would like to see is tougher, random mobs and bosses to keep you on your toes and add more realism to the game. You know, like never the same game twice.

TideSwayer · Jan 15, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

A few things:

1) I'm the OP.

2) Note that this thread was originally created in AUGUST 2005.

3) Note that the thread title says ".....as it is NOW...", meaning my opinion way back in AUGUST 2005.

4) Also note that my first word in my OP was "Currently...", meaning my opinion way back in AUGUST 2005.

5) Note that the game has changed a bit from those summer days. (Rememer when warriors sucked in PvP and Eles were the greatest things ever?)

6) Note that opinions can and do change over time. Note a post of mine in this thread from last night, which states as much:

Quote:

Just a small note here: not only do I not feel the way I did when I wrote the topic-starter post, that post was made way back in LATE AUGUST and I haven't really played Guild Wars at all since around late October-early November. (OLD THREAD ALERT!) I frankly don't know how the game plays now. Haven't done so much as kill a devourer in about 2-3 months. I had no problem with the game overall by the time I took a break. I just needed one.

Basically, when referring to 'the OP', you are referring to an opinion of mine that I had months ago. I cannot and will not be held liable for people holding a 5-MONTH OLD STATEMENT against me now.

Thank you.

IIIPowerIII · Jan 15, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

I'de have to say the OP just doesn't think enough. If you want to avoid enchantment removal, take a cover enchantment.

My friend plays an E/W fire-sword-tactics user. I have a Monk/archer. Both do fine in PvE. You can play PvE with any build. I played the whole game through (beat the game) my first time as a smiting-hammer-heal warrior. I was using Orsion of Healing as a self-heal, too! That should tell you something.

You cant cover enchantment whe they use [Elite] Lingering Curse that remove them all

The only cover enchantment was Spellbreaker

Former Ruling · Jan 15, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Without Reading, I'll give my gross personal opinion on PvE.

PvE is the one I can be unique in, PvP requires certain things cause you ogtta be rdy for more sutff - you cant get all funny in PvP and win. In PvE you know what skills the enmy uses so anything you use that can beat that is great.

Bosco · Jan 16, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

I agree with the original post, however, it's almost impossible to counteract by Anet. It is in the nature of people to find what works best, and use it.

The enchantment stripping was done to reduce farming. It's not bad in my opinion - go into any PvP arena and there'll be a player stripping enchantments. That doesn't stop people from using them - you just have to be more sly about it. I think, perhaps, that the monsters need to be MORE difficult to kill, yet deal less damage overall. Perhaps add more healing monsters, and have them make use of more enchantments themselves. This will increase the roll of Mesmers/Necromancers stripping/interrupting features that are not in use. Mesmers are pretty much useless except in small groups against a healing boss, or as echo nukers. This will also downplay the roll of monks, elementalists, and warriors to a certain extent as healing and damage dealing and tanking will not be quite as necessary.

I'd love to see some quests that are IMPOSSIBLE to do without a mesmer to round out the group.

On a side note - I swear to god some monsters have 1235985798353426346 energy at their disposal - I've tried energy denial and they just cast away like nothing's happening.

Grammar · Jan 16, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therlun

ohhh... another dozen lv24 hydras, spamming meteor shower and fireball.
whoopie! what fun it will be to fight them...
i would prefer much smaller, more balanced mobs on open maps.

GW fails to bring the PVP system into the PVE enviroment.
what use has an interrupt or shutdown, if there are 6 monster of the same class casting/fighting?

All of the problems with Guild War's PvE can be traced to this single issue.

Guild Wars needs to decrease the NUMBER of enemies you fight, and increase the STRENGTH of the enemies you fight.
Insead of fighting two dozen weaker enemies, I'd rather fight a half dozen stronger enemies.
It's so simple. Have less monsters, and make them much stronger and thier mobs more diverse (multiple classes in each mob).

I'm sick of seeing my compass map coated with a hundred freaking red dots. The only reason PvE in GW can be hard on occation is because of the sheer number of enemies the game throws at you, almost never because any of the individual monsters are actually difficult. As a result, the wold of PvE in GW breaks down to nothing more than aggro management. As long as you don't aggro too much, PvE is easy.

What I dream of is Anet replacing all those massive mobs with smaller, more powerful boss-like mobs.
So instead of 50 tedious red dots on your compass map, there would be more like 8 or 10 red dots, and those red dots would all represent super powerful monsters (bosses, level 30's, something like that).

Decreased numbers, increased strength.

Hyunsai · Jan 16, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Weapons stats are the same with little room for improvement on stats once you get the 15's and with collectors freely spread about these are easy to obtain, you can even buy a +15% sword now for 5 plat and a few resources.
15k armor is not better than 1500gp armor, fissure armor is no better than 1500gp armor.

I'm a PVE player (doing some CA sometimes) and THIS IS WHY I love this game. Only thing should be more variety of skin, I agree.

theclam · Jan 16, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

UW is almost all small groups. You usually fight Aatxes in 2s and 3s, Dryders come in 3s. The only major exception is smites, which come in ~6s (although you often pull far more).

The problem with having small groups is that they're really easy to fight. With enough enchants, you can make your Warriors 100% invulnerable. If there are only a couple mobs, Mesmers can shut a mob down, Rangers can keep a mob blind and crippled, etc.

Pandora's box · Jan 16, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

I think most players who want a better pve balance have a background in AD&D. What they really mean is: The game like it is now is too much based on fast reaction. This is arcade. AD&D players like to think over a situation. Even in the middle of a fight. There's no time for that. Using enchantments is no fun this way because every mob has a mesmer. Of course there are builds to counter mesmers, but those are purely based on superfast reactions: look when something is being cast and react! Its arcade... And the reason for that is simly pvp. THERE its fun to play this way!

So back to the OP: Being a pve player myself I agree. There is a huge and beautifull world, but there is nothing else to do but agro the same kind of mobs. I would like to role play much more. I would like to build a place of my own. Maps should have less monsers and more secrets. I would like to proceed to new maps without being forced into missions. I would like to play more quests instead. And of course the world should have been constructed to play solo. Joining parties is fun, but only with well known friends. So optional: yes. Forced: no!

Hyunsai · Jan 16, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Err, I did all the desert quests, coop and cie alone, with henchmen...

I don't see what you are FORCED to...

anonymous · Jan 16, 2006, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMadisonIV

I'll respond completely after reading your post fully...

but off the top of my head, just answering your title...

I think most of the discouraging of unique builds and playstyles comes from the Playerbase, who are all set in their ways of "you HAVE to have this, this and this to be successful".

I am a Melee-Built Mesmer/warrior. you can only imagine how long it takes me to get a group.

Wow you can get a group? Im suprised that others have broken through the tank-nuker-healer wall and accepted you in.

theclam · Jan 16, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

I'll respond completely after reading your post fully...

but off the top of my head, just answering your title...

I think most of the discouraging of unique builds and playstyles comes from the Playerbase, who are all set in their ways of "you HAVE to have this, this and this to be successful".

I am a Melee-Built Mesmer/warrior. you can only imagine how long it takes me to get a group.

I'll invite anyone into my groups once we have two monks and a warrior. The only builds I frown upon are casters who melee. I usually play in FoW or UW when I do group PvE. Casters die in 1-2 hits against Aatxes. When we're facing 2-3 Aatxes and you insist on being in melee range, you're going to rack up a lot of DP. Beyond that, I have no problems inviting mesmers, rangers, and necromancers. It's first come, first serve in my groups.

WasAGuest · Jan 16, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

All of the problems with Guild War's PvE can be traced to this single issue.

Guild Wars needs to decrease the NUMBER of enemies you fight, and increase the STRENGTH of the enemies you fight.
Insead of fighting two dozen weaker enemies, I'd rather fight a half dozen stronger enemies.
It's so simple. Have less monsters, and make them much stronger and thier mobs more diverse (multiple classes in each mob).

I'm sick of seeing my compass map coated with a hundred freaking red dots. The only reason PvE in GW can be hard on occation is because of the sheer number of enemies the game throws at you, almost never because any of the individual monsters are actually difficult. As a result, the wold of PvE in GW breaks down to nothing more than aggro management. As long as you don't aggro too much, PvE is easy.

What I dream of is Anet replacing all those massive mobs with smaller, more powerful boss-like mobs.
So instead of 50 tedious red dots on your compass map, there would be more like 8 or 10 red dots, and those red dots would all represent super powerful monsters (bosses, level 30's, something like that).

Decreased numbers, increased strength.

This would soo be perfect. I love the battles that take longer than 30 seconds to be over. Especially some of the bosses. As a former EQ'er, I loved the battles in that game (hated the camping and raids though). A group would have to work together to beat the foes. Even a single foe would pose a threat to a good group. I wish we had some of that here... not all foes as some times the fast paced combat is fun...but you get what I am saying. Come on Anet, let us try this for a month or so... show us how diverse this streaming tech can be.

Juhanah · Jan 16, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

I think us pve-ers finally just have to face facts. GW's is not a mmorpg, it doesn't have the quality pve features to keep many interested for long.

People got the idea of Guildwars being MMORPG because it's online. But it is not a MMORPG it's a CORPG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.guildwars.com/faq/default.html#details

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Besides the drop rate being very pitiful poor now after so many nerfs to stop bots and ebayers, they've practially ruined the fun value for most of the rest of us that played the way it was intended, very sad really.

If no one had that weird idea that items are absolutely needed, there wouldn't be bots and Arenanet wouldn't have needed to "nerf". So the one you need to blame for this is Human Stupidity and the "i need more money/item" idea people have stuck in their head... not Arenanet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Other Mmorpgs when you kill a "boss" you get something nice and useful. GW's bosses, when you kill them you are lucky to get some coin, rarely anything of value and basically just makes pve a waste of time once you have completed the story.

Usually at the end of the story, it's the end. There's a couple more thing to do in Guildwars though. They added the Titan's Quests, the Sorrow Furnace, Finishing all the bonuses of every missions, Getting every skills, Going to PvP!.. or you can do farming runs that a lot of people seem to enjoy. Saying the game is a waste because there's nothing to do after you complete the story, is the same as saying a book is a waste because there's nothing else to read once you finish it. MMORPG have endless gameplay because they make you pay monthly and the most you play, the most money they make. And those game usually don't have story.. Beside the little backgroud history they have on their webpage to put you in situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Armor stats are the same no matter what they look like after you reach Droknar's Forge, they are just more expensive to craft vs letting them drop off a boss mob or something that would give more fun and reason to go adventuring instead of farming for ectos and shards. 15k armor is not better than 1500gp armor, fissure armor is no better than 1500gp armor.

Instead of farming ectos and shards, you would farm armors.. what's the differense? The armor are not better.. Then why would you need it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

This is a big difference in real pve mmorpgs and GW's illusion of a pve game atmosphere.

That's probably the reason why they didn't call it a MMORPG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Then to top it off they offer the complete skill set once you get to hell, no adventuring required, no reason to adventure, here you are all you need is plat, go farm and experience farming, and buy all your skills, am surprised they didn't add elites to the list, give it time they probably will.

You have to go through a war with big monster burning down a whole country, travel through snow mountain and fight against xenophobe dwarves, travel from Kryta to the Maguuma Jungle to save some Chosen from the hands of the White Mantle, travel to the desert and pass the test of the gods to ascend, go into a dragon's lair which is hidden in a grain of sand, fight against some god like monsters to free your shining blades friends and fight those gods into the volcanic island before learning you were only a puppet and finally reach the end and getting all the skills. And you say there's no exploration or adventure? Of course if you took a taxi run you ruined it for yourself and you're the only one to blame. They added the skill NPC exactly because people didn't want to farm to get them. And you really don't need to farm to get all the skill you need to PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

This is the difference between a Diablo 2 and Dungeon Siege like game vs GW's. They had unique items and item "sets" to explore for.

Guildwars have unique items to find. But exactly like in Dungeon Siege, they are not needed to be effective. And of course there's lots of difference between Guildwars and every other games. The reason is other games aren't Guildwars. It's like saying you don't like basketball because they don't play it on ice and don't have goalers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Every adventure through Diablo 2 always yielded very good quality items and of course the ability to level to 99. I'm rather bored of being level 20 since the first month I played the game over 7 months ago. The newness has gone and boredom and repetitiveness sets in.

Guildwars is a competitive/cooperative RPG. If you could have level99 people with all the "farmed-2-years-for" items, it wouldn't be competitive or cooperative at all. It would just become a "my weapon shine more than yours so i can kill more monsters than you" game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

All n all it was a good ruse to get people interested in the 1st edition, but, well as for myself it has no appeal for the 2nd edition. Farming just isn't the type of pve game I wanted to play and pvp is not my style of role playing at all.

Seriously, if you farm in Guildwars, it's not because you have to but rather because you want to. And if you don't want to do PvP then you're only playing half of what Guildwars really is.

The problem is when people see "Online Game" they think it's like every other MMORPG where all you have to do is to level up and get items until the earth stop turning. If you reach the end and can't find anything interesting to do, do like with every other game. Stop and play something else. It's not like you must play because you pay monthly.

I played NWN last summer for the first time. I bought the game and the 2 expentions. When i was done with the story, i didn't go to bioware forum to cry that there's nothing else to do. I un-installed the game, went to BestBuy, bought Dungeon Siege 2 and played it. Once finished, i said "that game was hot!", deleted it and came back at playing Guildwars because i was missing it.

Lets Get to Healing · Jan 16, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Complainers

theclam · Jan 16, 2006, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juhanah

People got the idea of Guildwars being MMORPG because it's online. But it is not a MMORPG it's a CORPG.

If no one had that weird idea that items are absolutely needed, there wouldn't be bots and Arenanet wouldn't have needed to "nerf". So the one you need to blame for this is Human Stupidity and the "i need more money/item" idea people have stuck in their head... not Arenanet.

Usually at the end of the story, it's the end. There's a couple more thing to do in Guildwars though. They added the Titan's Quests, the Sorrow Furnace, Finishing all the bonuses of every missions, Getting every skills, Going to PvP!.. or you can do farming runs that a lot of people seem to enjoy. Saying the game is a waste because there's nothing to do after you complete the story, is the same as saying a book is a waste because there's nothing else to read once you finish it. MMORPG have endless gameplay because they make you pay monthly and the most you play, the most money they make. And those game usually don't have story.. Beside the little backgroud history they have on their webpage to put you in situation.

Instead of farming ectos and shards, you would farm armors.. what's the differense? The armor are not better.. Then why would you need it?

That's probably the reason why they didn't call it a MMORPG.

You have to go through a war with big monster burning down a whole country, travel through snow mountain and fight against xenophobe dwarves, travel from Kryta to the Maguuma Jungle to save some Chosen from the hands of the White Mantle, travel to the desert and pass the test of the gods to ascend, go into a dragon's lair which is hidden in a grain of sand, fight against some god like monsters to free your shining blades friends and fight those gods into the volcanic island before learning you were only a puppet and finally reach the end and getting all the skills. And you say there's no exploration or adventure? Of course if you took a taxi run you ruined it for yourself and you're the only one to blame. They added the skill NPC exactly because people didn't want to farm to get them. And you really don't need to farm to get all the skill you need to PvE.

Guildwars have unique items to find. But exactly like in Dungeon Siege, they are not needed to be effective. And of course there's lots of difference between Guildwars and every other games. The reason is other games aren't Guildwars. It's like saying you don't like basketball because they don't play it on ice and don't have goalers.

Guildwars is a competitive/cooperative RPG. If you could have level99 people with all the "farmed-2-years-for" items, it wouldn't be competitive or cooperative at all. It would just become a "my weapon shine more than yours so i can kill more monsters than you" game.

Seriously, if you farm in Guildwars, it's not because you have to but rather because you want to. And if you don't want to do PvP then you're only playing half of what Guildwars really is.

The problem is when people see "Online Game" they think it's like every other MMORPG where all you have to do is to level up and get items until the earth stop turning. If you reach the end and can't find anything interesting to do, do like with every other game. Stop and play something else. It's not like you must play because you pay monthly.

I played NWN last summer for the first time. I bought the game and the 2 expentions. When i was done with the story, i didn't go to bioware forum to cry that there's nothing else to do. I un-installed the game, went to BestBuy, bought Dungeon Siege 2 and played it. Once finished, i said "that game was hot!", deleted it and came back at playing Guildwars because i was missing it.

Well said. Guild Wars' character progression is not about making numbers on your character sheet go up. What it is about is gaining new ways to play your character. Instead of getting Heal Rank 8, you get Divine Boon. Instead of getting a Weapon with 3 more Stamina, you get a Weapon that gives you 20% longer enchantments. Stats and levels are meaningless. Your level goes up by 1, mob levels go up by 1, the game is the same. More levels don't make the game any more fun, they just make it take longer to get to the challenging parts of the game. Guild Wars' rewards are supposed to be the play experience, not the items at the end. I actually do PvP and go to FoW/UW/SF because I find it fun, not because I want great loot. That's not something that I can say about many RPGs.

Factions will be great because it gives you a lot more things to do and a lot more ways to do those things.

If you don't feel that you can enjoy an RPG without getting lots of levels and uber loot, then go play WoW.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jan 16, 2006, 09:06 AM // 09:06

First of all, I didn't read everything in this thread it (don't intend to), so I won't know what had been cover or not.

PvE is one of the more discouraging part of the game, everyone must admit. I have never seen, "HEY! I love (insert explorable area name)!! Let's play inside that again next time!". The only reason people go into explorable area are for either farming, or something to do with skill gaining, or.... farming.

There are so far only ONE explorable area that I would like to visit more than 1 time. Majestic Rest. The bone dragon and monster layout are much more interesting than say... in the desert, 50 storm kin jump you, all of them use power drain, conjur phantasm, clumisness, etc.

Many of the PvE area lack variety in monsters, therefore it lack variety in build players can use. For example, if the area is packed with ranger and ranger alone, then anyone who bring a fire/water/air elementalist is an idiot (ranger got high elemental resistance). While this area would encourage millions of warriors to farm it. I believe this is the main problem.

Player would start saying "omg! you are not an echo nuker!? F**Kin n00bs" *kick*, because echo nuker being the most effective way of killing in that area.

The game is balanced, but not balanced on every explorable area.

In other games like PSO ep2 (phantasy star online), I would say stuffs like "I love playing in seabed", for those tricky sinow and fast action. In GW currently, the monsters are really boring.

I think the best way to make PvE more entertaining is to put skills that players don't have with majority of the monsters out there. Like the bone dragon's roar, fire djin's flame, lich's teleport, etc. Instead of having the minotaur slowly run to you to start hitting you, give them something that would run players over (maybe even propell the players aside) or things alike. Something more dramatic.

Oh yea, and Anet had always said "we care for both part of the game". They certainly can't live up to that if half of their game is pretty boring. Ok, maybe 1/4+ (some mission are just a drag, quite boring) of their game is boring (1/2 of gw=pvp, 1/2 of gw=pve, 1/2 of pve=missions/explorable). If one want to say "Anet just make explorable for people to run through the game", in that sense, yea pve explorable are SUPPOSE to be boring.

coolsti · Jan 16, 2006, 09:53 AM // 09:53

It soooooooooooooo much depends on what you want out of this game, what your playing style is, and what kind of player you are.

I don't PvP of GvG. I am a PVE purist. And there are many like me out there. I love the PVE part of this game, am still playing it every night, and am playing the same missions and areas over and over again. Not only for farming. I don't farm at all except for searching for green items and of course ectos, shards and other nice drops when in UW and FOW.

So all you people who assume that "PVE is only for unlocking skills" and "the PVE part of GW stinks and no one likes it", well, you are generalizing falsely.

I can understand that many would find this particular PVE not to their liking, everyone has their own tastes. I can understand people finding it boring after some time, but hey, every game will get that way after playing it repeatedly.

Regarding builds: I for one try to experiment as much as I can. I don't listen to what everyone thinks I should bring along for a particular mission or area. But then again, I generally play with friends, or groups consisting mostly of friends, and we all understand that we all should have the freedom to experiment with our builds. If anyone tells you what you should take as skills, well, that should be accepted as a suggestion. But if it is a demand, well, then you just find a new group.

The only two points regarding builds that I find frustrating are 1) there are so many good skills for each primary profession that I never seem to be able to use the secondary profession for any of my characters and 2) since the ability to "rebirth" a party member seems so overly important, most of my character's secondary class is monk, where because of 1) I set 0 points on monk attributes and just take rebirth as the only monk skill. I find that a bit of a shame: I have lots of fun and variety with my builds when I stick to my primary profession, but it would be nice if I could find more reason to use the secondary profession more fully.

I think a definite problem is that Anet has set the game up so that PVE lovers and PVE haters naturally come into contact with each other. What I mean is that players who only want to advance their new characters to the high level area, for example to unlock skills, need somehow to interact with the PVE portion of this game. By rights, they need to play out the missions and quests to get their characters from pre-seering to the ring of fire islands. But what these people do instead is they get run. Or rush through the game in some other manner. And the problem with this is that it makes it extremely hard for PVE lovers like myself to find other PVE lovers for PUG groups to do the missions and quests with. Running is so common these days, that even PVE players begin to assume that the only way to get from one point to another is to be run. Or PVE players become like me - I am so pessimistic about getting a PUG group together to do lower level missions or to travel in the desert or around Droks, that I don't even try to find a PUG group. I go either with friends or with henchies. And that is really a shame, because about 99% of my enjoyment of this game is the human interaction that you get in a "good" PUG group. Perhaps it would have been better to let people unlock their skills for PVP without having to do the PVE. In my mind it would also be better if the game was changed so that running was actually impossible (how about if dead party members do not get transported along with the runner?).

Sol_Vie · Jan 16, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

I think that Diablo II really didn't give players any options for different builds, which was frustrating.